The Perfect Career Length
A few weekends ago I spent some time with my good friend and his family. We drove up to a nearby lake in the Sierra for the day and grilled up food, made a fire for our kids to cook up s’mores, and enjoyed the brilliant scenery that is a mountain lake nestled amongst towering pines. I hadn’t really hung out with him since last October, as we’d been adhering best we can to social distancing guidelines. As we relaxed near the fire we’d made and watched our kids throwing rocks into the high altitude lake and walking atop fallen logs, we started talking about retirement parties. My friend’s wife mentioned that a co-worker was retiring after 54 years of working at her company. The current owner of this company was 9 years old when this retiring co-worker started her tenure. And apparently, this company didn’t want to have a party for this lifer till our friend’s insistence made its way to top leadership.
54 years
My wife, who’s an HR manager at a Fortune 500 company, throws many retirement parties as part of her duties. She remarked on how this was a big deal. A true feat. Everyone seemed to agree. This was remarkable. Not only staying with a single company but working for 5 decades.
“I hope to God I don’t ever have to work that long.” I interjected. My friend, who’s not at all in the FIRE camp, agreed.
Is a 54 year work career a cause to celebrate? Is that a success…or complete failure?
It seems maybe this would be a celebration for the company and the government, but not the employee. Were we born so that we can work diligently for a half-century for a corporation?
Of course in my FIRE tainted eyes, 54 years of working a W-2 job is a failure. But that’s my own opinion. I don’t know if this new retiree completely and utterly loved their job. It may have been their life’s passion. It may have been the only thing this person dreamed about doing since childhood. Maybe they had no family or friends outside of work. But 54 years. That just seems like too long to be working.
Maybe at some point in time, in another generation’s eyes, this might have been a success story. To me, and probably to you reading this, this is a horror story.
A long career is an honorable thing. A person who works a long career is probably a good law-abiding citizen. A person who’s paid more than their share of taxes to the government. They’ve probably been a good consumer as well, keeping our economy buzzing and stock markets rising. This was my father’s generation. He worked for 44 years. For him and other baby boomers, this was what it was all about. Work hard and long and have nice things. Your profession was woven tightly into your identity.
I have no idea what it’s like to enjoy being a true master at something either, meaning decades and decades at a single profession. Why give something up just as you’ve mastered it? And maybe that thing mastered pays well too, they usually do. I also think that the longer you work for a living, the more that work becomes life, instead of a supplement to life. Again nothing wrong with those who choose that path. It’s just not for me. I can’t unsee the off-ramp from the rat race that FIRE has shown me.
It’s also not all glory and prestige for those who choose to continue working for decades. I’ve seen older, loyal workers who love their company, get pushed out and terminated because of age or because they make too much money after years of compounding incremental annual raises. If a company can get a younger guy to do your job for half the price, why wouldn’t they? I’m actually greatly impacted by an older co-worker who was a mentor of mine and was let go after 34 years at the same company for no real reason. After telling him he was fired, they offered to throw him a retirement party to keep up the company look, which he angrily declined. After witnessing that a few years ago, I told myself I never wanted to be that person. I never want work to tell me when it’s over. It needs to be the other way around.
mercenary mindset
I think of my employment from the point of view of the mercenary. I’m a soldier of fortune. There’s no love for the employer or any feelings beyond a mutual business deal. I treat my employer like a friendly stray dog. A conversation with a stranger on the street. At any moment things could go well, and in the same moment, I could be attacked by letting my guard down. If I can find a better deal, I’ll seriously consider taking it and not feel an ounce of guilt. I’ve accepted that my employment is temporary. Whether that “temporary” status is 20 years or 20 days, it’s all the same. Temporary. Not that I’d be okay with getting canned, I’d be upset and stressed out. But I try to prepare myself by thinking about it often enough so that if it does happen, it won’t sting as much.
I’m feeling comfortable at work again, and this is my way of pushing back against that dangerous fuzzy feeling. Being comfortable never got anyone anywhere in life. I work harder for the company and save more when I’m uncomfortable.
If an employer wants to act like I’m family and take me out to lunch, I’m not going to object. But I won’t be fooled into thinking they have a special spot for me in their heart. I’ve been in meetings where employees are talked about like inanimate chess pieces. There’s no doubt that in other meetings I’m talked about in the same manner–but it’s just business. No hard feelings. I’ve been fooled once, never again.
the perfect career length
So what’s the perfect career length?
The short answer is as long as it takes to save up enough to retire.
But how long is too long? Even if you love your job, there must be more to life than working at a profession.
Even the military only expects a twenty-year career from you. Soldiers in the ancient Roman empire were guaranteed by the state (during the Pax Romana), citizenship and a plot of land after a 20-year service in the legions. My in-laws, who are in law enforcement, can retire after 25 years with a pension. And if I can retire per my plan, at the age of 43, I would have worked 25 years. That sounds about right for me. If I truly enjoyed my work, I think I wouldn’t mind working a little longer. And to be honest, if I truly enjoyed my work, FIRE might not be the right path for me.
All I know is that if I have to work for 54 years at a corporation, something has gone terribly wrong.
What do you think? Am I being too harsh? Is 54 years too long for a working career? What’s your perfect career length?
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54 years. That’s certainly a goodly amount of time. Your wife is right, not recognizing or honoring that service as an employer is pretty despicable – glad she intervened.
It’s a tough question and, like you say, it depends on the motivations of the individual. I’d be happy doing my current job of cat butler and writing ridiculous articles on the web forever, but I’m not dependent on cash from doing so.
We each get the same thing – we get a lifetime. I guess it’s up to us on how best to spend it. But, yeah, 54 years is too much for me.
Yeah, pretty crummy employer if you ask me. I know not all companies are like that, but it’s stories like that that just rub me the wrong way.
Sounds like you got the perfect gig right now! 54 years just blew my mind. I don’t think I’d ever heard of anyone working that long for one employer. Maybe that’s the old-school way of working. I’m with you, it’s up to the person. Some people love work and I respect that.
it’s a funny thing how 2 people can do the same job and come away with totally opposite experiences. i had a coworker who did a job similar to my present one for close to 40 years. i saw him after he retired near a soccer field where he was watching his teen daughter compete while i was running my dog around. he told me he missed work.
the difference to me was a lot of luck. he pretty much had the easy job i’ve been doing the past few years for almost the whole time. he got the full pension deal and was treated well and never experienced the crap that i did with getting bounced around or this or that. his seniority just landed him in a good spot. mine always had me around the cut line to work on shift at a crap job every couple of years. exact same job but two different experiences.
i don’t know the right career length but i can tell i’m getting close to the end of this one. the company sure is not my pal.
You’re right about that. Two people can be looking at the same thing and see something totally different. I sort of envy those who love work and are completely content doing what they’re doing. There’s certain suffering that comes along with wanting more or something we don’t have at the moment. I know I have that and it’s a hindrance. I also can’t take orders too well, which is why I wanted to be a boss from the start, but with that comes stress…
Some people just get lucky in their line of work. I have a friend like that too. Easy work all the time. I’d never really thought about how long a career length should be, it certainly isn’t a one size fits all thing. The vast 99% of us in the workforce are working towards some form of financial independence, even those who don’t know it yet… it’s just us in the PF sphere who are just more intentional about it and want it sooner or to have the option to quit at any moment at least. Thanks for stopping by.
I think your “mercenary mindset” is the best way to approach it, and it’s similar to my take. I will exchange my talents for money for as long as it makes sense to maintain the arrangement, and then we’ll go our separate ways.
I worked closely with two different people that amassed 50+ years at our company, and their situations seemed very different. One of them genuinely seems to love coming to work every day, as if he’s just hanging out with his friends. He seems care free, and I have a feeling he might work until he dies. The other coworker was often bitter, resentful toward the company, and didn’t always seem like he wanted to be there. So why was he there? He was passionate about the technology, not the people/politics, and I’m not sure he knew what he would do after retiring.
54 years seems excessive, but I guess every situation is unique. Once we definitely have hit our FI targets, I’ll ask myself, “is there something better than working that I could be doing right now?”, and if the answer is “yes,” I’m out.
I applaud your ability to stand up to your employer. Like I commented on one of your posts, I’m still chasing the money and don’t yet have the will to give the finger yet when things get tough. One day…
Wow that’s amazing. Two people with 50 plus years in! I guess it’s not too rare. Once FIRE has been discovered, it completely changes the paradigm in which we view the working and consumer world. I feel bad for the people who are forced to work into old age because of financial illiteracy. I envy the other happy guy you mention. I bet not knowing what to do in retirement has a lot to do with people working long careers. The longer people work, the more work becomes their life, for the good or bad.
I’m sure you’ll find that thing sooner than later that’ll have you hitting the FIRE button.
My Dad worked his entire life until 81. He was the oldest person in the company and the person who had been there the longest. But it was too long.
I think it’s hard to find that point to stop working for people who enjoy their job. In a way, it might help some older folks stay young to work longer. Might even be good for mental health? They might feel needed at work. They get to socialize. They feel good about doing something. I think my dad is like that. He’s retiring this year, but it’s really hard for him to pull the trigger. Work is his life. My mom’s father also worked into his late 70’s, but it was more because he needed the money than love of the work.
But isn’t it so great that some of us have an opportunity to have a choice to retire early because of the combination of where we were born and having discovered PF and/or FIRE? So many people in the world have to work until they can’t…
I have no problem if someone enjoys working and keeps on doing it, but that is probably not why they are still working into their 70s.
My grandfather worked until he was basically forced into retirement due to Alzheimer’s….BUT I always thought it was because he loved his job (he was a Financial Advisor). He loved talking to people. He love schmoozing people.
But I was wrong. I am sure he did love aspects of his job, but he mainly worked because he was bleeding through money. He didn’t have enough to ever fully retire 🙁
Oh that’s sad. I’m sure your grandfather did enjoy some of the social elements. I know I hate seeing older people at work struggle, especially in the construction field out on the building side where it can be physical. Or seeing older people driving beat-up cars and looking like they’ve worked hard their entire lives. You can just see it in their eyes and hands. I always wonder what kind of choices or lives they must have lived to put them in their current situation. No savings, maybe a bad divorce, or poor choices early on in life. Those of us in the PF sphere, especially if we’ve found it early on, are very fortunate.
Good one Noel. This is all stuff I’ve thought about but never written about. And I pretty much have all the same views as you. I’ll caveat that if the person absolutely loved their job and what they do, maybe 54 years is too short? Hahaha. However, I think it tends to be the enigma who loves their job nowadays. They do exist, like Steveark, but like the dinosaurs, quickly becoming extinct.
Love the mercenary mindset paragraph and that’s exactly the same as I treat it. “I’m a soldier of fortune.” That line was golden.
Like you and I, once you’ve seen some brutal layoffs or older workers pushed out, you wise up real quick. There needs to be a solid plan “B” always and big brother sure as hell isn’t my friend.
Like people mention in the comments above, once in a while you get that person that had a cake ride and everything worked out for them. But you and I know, that most people who tend to be loyal to a company get screwed in the end. It rarely ends pretty and most likely that person left lots of money on the table over the years.
For me personally 15-20 years is too long, but I’m going to exceed that most likely… hahaha. Oh well, we get there when we get there.
The other side of this for me is, when I hear someone celebrating 20 years at a company, I also thing how limited their experience is. They’ve only known one company their entire career. In my experience, most growth comes when you change companies and have to adapt and learn new systems, people and politics. It seasons you.
Great post my man.
Insightful comment Q-FI! There really isn’t a wrong answer as long as the individual is happy and has options. Obviously, we’re both biased as FIRE has touched our souls…
Agreed. If you work long enough, you see the sharp side of the employer’s sword. Working through the great recession has deeply impacted people in our age group–for me maybe it was more traumatized lol. This last recession went by in a blip though. Somehow I weathered through. Last year was scary, but I now see the light at the end of the tunnel. Pure luck my industry wasn’t hit too hard, and the low-interest rates and bay area exodus make for a prime environment for private investors to feast on and build new buildings while people are scared. These real estate developers will be making a killing when people move back into the cities…but I digress…
Right, no love for loyalty in the corporate world. It’s sad to watch. The show goes on no matter how important you feel at work. You have a great attitude about “getting there when we get there”. I’m always striving for that. Wanting something else than the present moment is pure suffering in my opinion.
Yeah, and moving companies also get you more money. I’ve been able to bounce my way up the income scale by hopping every few years. My last jump was a 30% increase. I think we’re probably both seasoned “mercenary” vets, we’ve seen the great recession blood bath.
Thanks for your thought-provoking comments as always!
One of my closest friends’ father has been working now, initially in the air force, for a similar amount of time—I think approaching upper 40+ years. He’s highly disciplined. Still goes for an early morning jog nearly daily, I’ve joined him on a number of occasions. Dinner comes at a particular time. His outfits are strikingly routine. And he certainly identifies with work.
To be honest, I’ve looked up to him over the last few decades—naturally, as I became close friends with my buddy, I got to know his family well. They were always very kind to me. And his father was a bit of a role model in his responsibility, success, ability to be counted on if the chips were down.
But the truth is, I have a fairly good idea of their finances. Multimillions. And they live (relative to their income and wealth) a rather modest lifestyle. Sure, it’s probably twice what Jenni and I spend–but they could spend a lot more without worry. No designer clothes. Two Fords they drove into the 200K+ mile range.
But I never really understood what the point was. Like, why keep working? What’s it for? You don’t need more money (their kids, including my close friend are plenty successful and independent). And atop that they don’t really spend it.
I think it’s because that’s what he’s always done. Worked. What else is there?
That’s the problem to avoid. Not having an identity outside of your occupation.
Some people derive a huge part of their identity from their job or organization or craft. Especially so with the baby boomer generation, I’ve noticed. You say it perfectly: “that’s what he’s always done. Worked. What else is there?” People who fall into this camp, and my father is in this camp I believe, will feel like they’ll lose a part of themselves when they or if they retire. This mindset probably happens slowly over time and once it happens it’s probably too late. I respect people who work hard a ton, especially if it’s for their family. Even if the job is semi-enjoyable it’s probably like trying to stop a freight train when it comes time to call it quits, there’s so much momentum that builds up over the years.
Work can make you feel good about yourself. And if the pay is good on top of that feeling, the possibility of working a long career is likely. Luckily for our generation, there are more options we can consider and more conversations around those options. The internet and social media fuel this greatly. Keeping an identity separate from work is the key as you mention. My wife and I have conversations about this all the time. Especially now in our 30’s, work has taken over a huge part of our lives and I can feel the gravitational pull to keep plugging away. It’s a strong pull and I can see how those get carried away by it. Anyway, you hit the nail on the head.
Thanks for stopping by as always.
I really don’t know – but so far the perfect JOB tenure for me has been 2-3 years. I definitely can’t imagine being at the same company 54 years….
Yeah, I’m pretty close to that too so far. The longest I’ve been with one employer in consecutive years is probably 3-4 years. In my 20’s I hopped around quite a bit and took two gap years, but kept going back to the same employer. Then in my thirties I hopped around different companies for salary increases. 54 years is way too long. Thanks for commenting!
I have met several people at work who’ve spent almost their entire careers (30+ years) at the same company. Most would retire if they could.
On the other side of the spectrum are C level folks who make millions and can certainly retire, but don’t.
Is a 54 year work career a cause to celebrate? Is that a success…or complete failure? I’m not sure – I guess it depends on which side of the spectrum you are. But I’m quite certain one has to build a larger life, with good people in it, to really call it a success. I hope she found that at her work, even though the top executives at her company were real arses.
It’s a shame that the two sides of the spectrum you point out are so extreme. This is probably something we’ll start to see more and more of as the income gap widens for the haves and have nots.
I hope that this lady with the 54 year career was working long and hard so that her children won’t have to…either way, some unfortunate choices likely added up to 54 years of work. Thanks for adding to the conversation!
The thought of having to work 54 years makes me nauseous. I very literally have a physical response because if I could retire “yesterday”, I would.
I don’t think it is a failure though. Previous generations didn’t really care about enjoying work. They just worked. I think of my mom and how she worked 2 jobs for as long as I can remember for menial wages and never complained (not that I remember anyway). But here I am, working for considerably more but ready to retire.
Gosh I sure hope retirement is somewhere in my not so distant future. You just gave me a kick in the rear end. LOL.
I agree it’s not failure if the person wants to work that long. But if he/she hates work and is working a 54 year career, I’d call that a sad failure. My father is like your mom I think, he just works and that’s all there is to it. Even if he’s burnt out. It’s life now. But yeah, 54 years is way too long